Future Submarine Compatibility

#1
Hey there folks. Honestly this is a question for the big cheese himself, but it could use input from others as well.

I came back after a 2 year hiatus to be pleasantly surprised with the work being done. The coding still has a way to go (multiplayer campaigns seem to crash clients left and right, which bums me out!) but the core is being worked on, which is great. I didn't think Barotrauma needed much in the way of additional assets at this point, and certainly not revamps of some tried and true ones. My sub pack, for instance, had remained surprisingly compatible even with the additional mechanics. In my absence I received requests to update them, yet it turns out some people were doing that already because the needed changes were so minor. Everything added since 0.4 had improved the gameplay without rendering a lot of designs hopelessly obsolete, keeping much of the variety that has built up alive and well.

Then I saw this on Regalis' Twitter:
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It's not the slanted/sloping walls that bother me, considering we all have different ideas on how a submarine should or could be constructed. In my case, I was fine with boxes because they represented the pressure hull inside, usually a cylinder with flat walls, whereas the background art could be crafted into a neat, sub-style shape. I'm sure the same will be true after that update takes effect, and in any case new is new.

What bothers me are the parts inside the ship. It's clear that Regalis wants to make a facelift of existing parts, and so long as the art direction remains consistent I'm all for it. But look at the sizes of them. The sonar console seems to stretch almost twice as high. The console next to it (navigation?) is now gigantic. Likewise it appears the lockers have been made both taller and wider, out of proportion with the originals.

Changes like these will immediately render 90% of subs that have been designed over the years obsolete. Parts will punch through walls, floors and ceilings, not only appearing garish but potentially risking system failures due to contact with water. You can always swap out graphics of parts with the same proportions, but changing proportions will force people to redesign entire hulls around those parts, compartment by compartment. The more compact and "artsy" the design, the more these changes will hurt. Even shrinking the parts would hurt less than this. The stock boats will probably survive thanks to all their wasted space waiting to be filled. But what about the rest of them?

I understand the need for room to update these things, but is this really the intended result? I'm far from the only one whose work will be flushed. A pragmatic argument is that forcing everyone to rebuild everything they made over the past several years will keep them engaged as the game reaches completion and release, but that's also a pretty cynical business practice. Rigging up a good sub, taking advantage of all the fancy electrical mechanics the game offers, takes quite a long time to get right. The most complicated ones even need to have sea trials to work out all the bugs. For many of us, making designs and providing them to the community is one of the few ways we have to give back to the game's development, and the ever-expanding library has done much to keep servers interesting. Having to scrap most of our ships and deprive everyone, both community and designers, of all that work, is a sour reward if you ask me.

Everyone understands that the game is in development and that things may and often will change along the way to the finish line. But this is like designing racetracks, only to be told that the cars are now twice as long so all the roads have to be stretched this way and that to accommodate them. Thoughts?
"I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast, for I intend to go in harm's way."

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United Colonies Navy Ship Pack - UPDATED: 28 MAY 18
The Sailor's Manual - UPDATED: 1 JUNE 18

Hey, Vsauce! Michael Here. Do non-scalable GUIs make Barotrauma literally unplayable?

#3
Just gonna throw in my two cents about this while
A. Not really knowing if the changes Regalis is making are actually worth breaking old subs.
And
B. Paraphrasing some discussions I had with juanjp600 regarding software deprecation.

It's not Regalis' job to ensure backwards compatibility with all previously-made subs, but rather for the sub makers to keep updating their works so that they support the latest versions. The 'it would take a lot of work to update them' argument shouldn't hold back the game's progress if the new system/art/code/whatever is objectively better or more maintainable for the future.

Of course this assumes a perfect world where all changes made to the game are for the better and that there's a perfectly justified reason for breaking old subs. Likewise, I can't even generalize this argument to every instance where a dev releases an update that breaks mods. A fair amount of the time though, breaking support is usually done for the better, in this case to give the art an overhaul. Should Regalis really care about whether or not some new feature breaks a custom sub, or BTE, or one man's dream of creating the highest quality of standard through groundbreaking short films?
Warhawk wrote:Everyone understands that the game is in development and that things may and often will change along the way to the finish line. But this is like designing racetracks, only to be told that the cars are now twice as long so all the roads have to be stretched this way and that to accommodate them.
This statement really rubs me the wrong way. You acknowledge that the game is in a state where it's volatile, while disregarding it in the next sentence by giving it a strawman analogy. Again, bearing in mind that idfk if these changes are actually drastic/necessary, you say yourself that this type of stuff should be expected from a game that is in development. General rule of thumb would be to go into sub making both acknowledging and accepting that Barotrauma will change and not ensure compatibility with your subs, regardless of the effort poured into them. I mean, haven't people complained about old subs being broken by like, 3 past major updates so far due to changes in how players/subs handle?

I can still understand where you're coming from if this truly does visually or complete break any sub designed with the current components in mind, but the only thing you can really do is accept that they might break and move on while continuing to assume the worst-case scenario.

Re: Future Submarine Compatibility

#4
CommanderMark wrote:A fair amount of the time though, breaking support is usually done for the better, in this case to give the art an overhaul.
This is version 0.8.1.2. Last I saw the game, it was 0.4.1.6. Despite all that time, all the components I'm familiar with changed only in some functionality, and most of the updates added things, not redacted or replaced. Before I got here, parts looked like this:
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^ This is something I would expect to be volatile and change, not so much graphics that have been in place for the past two years, or at least not the proportions of them as they fit into the boats.
and that there's a perfectly justified reason for breaking old subs
Well that's the rub, isn't it? Based on that twitter post, the "perfectly justified reason" is to change the panels to be twice as big and fancy. That's cool, and in a development vacuum where nobody had seen or worked with the game yet I wouldn't mind a bit. I'm asking whether that "justified reason" is justified in the face of screwing up a big library of boats that probably won't be replaced. A lot of builders burned out and aren't even here anymore to make any drastic updates, and it's only because the designs have been so compatible this far that they're still in circulation.
I mean, haven't people complained about old subs being broken by like, 3 past major updates so far due to changes in how players/subs handle?
And how long ago was that? I've been away for 2 years, and except for some gun searchlights and parasite cures, my boats still work perfectly well. They're lacking new features that would make them even better, but the core ones are still there, and you can still plug them into the server rotation without a hitch. That stops the moment tried and true components start sticking out of walls and getting flooded by my own ballast tanks.
This statement really rubs me the wrong way. You acknowledge that the game is in a state where it's volatile, while disregarding it in the next sentence by giving it a strawman analogy.
Context. 0.8.1.2. Not 0.4, not 0.3 or 0.2. Volatility should be going down over the course of development as the original plan is met. This is a deceptively big change in an area in which community involvement was already enlisted for years. Personally I also find the change to be arbitrary, hence the comparison to suddenly making cars twice as long, but not twice as wide, nor rescaling the components of the road. I don't see why this was necessary considering the side-effects.
General rule of thumb would be to go into sub making both acknowledging and accepting that Barotrauma will change and not ensure compatibility with your subs, regardless of the effort poured into them.
Which, while true, would be terribly disheartening and would discourage me from pitching in. I'm not getting any younger.
but the only thing you can really do is accept that they might break and move on while continuing to assume the worst-case scenario.
To "move on assuming the worst case scenario" is to stop designing boats altogether because none of it will last through the next version, or the next, or the next... Should I finish what I'm working on now after coming back? Should I even bother to make those tweaks to my old boats just to slap 0.8 on them?


Discord chat brought up that there's a "legacy parts" option in the development branch which suggests that the existing parts will not be replaced, just not used for newer designs. This sounds great, except I have no idea if this feature is intended to be permanent or will be wiped away the moment Mr. Optimization comes knocking and questions why there are duplicate objects with different hitboxes. Pretty much all of this is avoided if sprites stayed within, or at least very, very close to, their original boundaries, but if the prerogative is to damn the torpedoes and go full speed ahead, what else is there to do? Honestly I feel bad for the folks who work on BTE. At least my boats are vanilla.
"I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast, for I intend to go in harm's way."

Image

United Colonies Navy Ship Pack - UPDATED: 28 MAY 18
The Sailor's Manual - UPDATED: 1 JUNE 18